Little Child Big World ~ an interview with Sue and Dwight
by Live Music Head
Since the start of the year, you’ve been busy with your weekly Saturday afternoon gig at The Cameron House, performing at music festivals, busking at TTC subway stations, touring Winnipeg and Manitoba, not to mention East Africa and also recording a new cd. Dwight, you even hold down a day job. Are you worn out by all this, or do you find yourselves energized by your musical life?
Sue
It has been energizing this year, for sure. I’ve been concentrating mostly on the music.
Dwight
We do get to points where we feel we have more than we can handle. It’s a bit of a rollercoaster, but its stuff we like doing. And my day job is great. It allows me to travel to Africa and work with programs that do rewarding work. And the thing about music is, every time the next day starts, it’s fresh. And we find our energy in a new way.
What about writing new songs?
Dwight
Well, we try to do that too. Maybe it’s different for Sue, but I find song writing falls to the wayside the easiest, or the soonest. The business end of the work and the practicing can be done very mechanically when you’re tired, but I really need to find those moments when I’m fresh, in order to be creative. The schedule is pretty tight and sometimes those moments are harder to find. As a result, I think I’ve only written half a dozen songs since last year, where usually I’d be much more prolific.
The term “coffee house” sprang up in the 60s to describe unlicensed venues where folk singers and artists would hang out, network and perform their material, often for the first time. Was there a coffee house circuit in Winnipeg when you started out?
Sue
Our career has taken a few turns. When we first got together, we performed cover music travelling around towns and small bars in Saskatchewan. It was the 80s, and we were doing that electro-pop sort of thing with digital bass and drums.
Really? I can’t picture you doing that.
Dwight
Sue sang Madonna songs.
Sue
And Cyndi Lauper. We did that for two years before stopping to take on proper corporate jobs. In the mid-90s we moved to Toronto. Once here, we started going to open stages, like the one at The Cameron House. But we still had full time jobs, and so put music aside again for another couple of years. Since 2005, we’ve been performing music full time, playing not only Dwight’s original material, but I’ve also started writing my own songs.
Dwight
The coffee house is an interesting analogy. Folk music didn’t start there, but it certainly found a home there. I think coffee houses were everywhere in the 60s, including a place called The Riverboat in Toronto. What’s interesting now is they’re held in Starbucks type, corporate venues. We like singing in coffee houses because audiences tend to be less noisy and as a result, people listen better. I’m glad to see the folk scene coming back. But in our Winnipeg days, it was bars and lounge scenes, with bands. Not really venues for singer songwriters. The coffee houses of Winnipeg were long gone by the time we came of age in the 70s.
Reading your blog I’ve discovered a new term. Well, at least new to me. And that’s House Concerts. Is this when someone decides to throw a party and invites an artist to be the musical guest? Is this a new trend Toronto musicians are subscribing to, in addition to performing in bars and clubs?
Sue
It is a new thing. And it’s a good thing. We love it. There are circuits popping up all over Canada and the United States. Tickets are sold in advance but, unlike a bar or club, where some people aren’t there just for the music, House Concerts are the ideal venue for singer songwriters to perform and be heard. We had a fabulous time playing one this past spring, and we’d love to do more of them.
Dwight
It’s increasingly harder to play in bars. Bars aren’t often the best venue for any type of music, let alone folk music. House Concerts appeal to the over-40 crowd who may not want to go to bars. And the House Concert is a controlled environment, so you don’t have to worry about the drunks who stumble in.
But wouldn’t someone need a licence to hold this sort of thing in their home?
Sue
Right now it’s relatively new and unregulated. House Concerts are by invitation only so it’s not tickets, per se, but guests are asked for a donation. I think that’s the way around it. It’s definitely something we’d like to do more of. The environment is ideal for song writers and storytellers.
When I think of Sue and Dwight, I think of musicians who sing and write about life in Canada. But with the collection of songs on the new cd, Little Child Big World, the inspiration comes from Africa. Dwight, can you give us a bit of background on CPAR (Canadian Physicians for AIDS and Relief) and the reason behind your visits to Africa?
Dwight
I first got involved in the non-profit sector just over a decade ago. Very quickly I became interested in developing countries like Africa. When the opportunity came up to work for CPAR, I jumped at it. CPAR is a development organization which provides basic human resources to African people, so they’ll have the ability to sustain themselves. CPAR’s approach is environmental through tree planting, reforestation, rehabilitation, farming methods, and nutritional programs. CPAR has become invaluable to Africa because their farming is done in very difficult situations with poor soil, drought or no drought. There are real extremes in Africa. CPAR has gained a reputation for not being afraid to stay around for the long haul. We’ve been in Northern Uganda for over twenty years now. CPAR is respected both locally and internationally. Africa has become a special place for me. The people are wonderful and their culture and history is tremendous. It’s a place I just can’t get enough of, and want to go back as often as possible. It’s an endless source of inspiration, which is a great benefit if you happen to be a singer songwriter.
And one of the inspired songs you wrote is called Gulu. Can you tell us about that?
Dwight
Gulu has roots dating back to 2004, while I was on my first trip to Africa. While travelling with a friend, we ended up in this town called Gulu (in the middle of a Northern Uganda) during a civil war. The rebels had gone back to Sudan for a while so it was a fairly safe area, but the people were still fearful. This is when we heard about night commuters. Night commuters are kids between the ages of 8 and 14 who are prime candidates for kidnapping by the rebels. From the surrounding villages, parents would send their kids to Gulu every night so they’d be safe. The kids would wake up in the morning and walk to school, walk home for a meal after school, and then walk back to Gulu when it was time for sleep. Some of these kids would have walked 5-6 miles in one day. One night we went to an area where they would be sleeping. It was dusk, and thousands of kids emerged out of nowhere. Before the kids were put down to sleep, they’d play games and sing. It was an eerie situation. Everyone was touched by it. On the one hand, they were running away from incredible danger but on the other, all you hear is their laughter. Kids just being kids, you know? I started writing the song Gulu in 2004, and finished it in 2007. Gulu will always be that one special place among many.
If I’m not mistaken, Gulu is the song on Little Child Big World that has the sound of African drums.
Dwight
The conga drum, which is a traditional African instrument and several other types of drums were used on Gulu to create that feeling.
I really felt the African feel with that song.
Sue
Gulu was also the inspiration for So Beautiful (from the first cd, Darlings of the Open Stage). The point of the song: things may not be perfect, but we shouldn’t lose sight of what’s beautiful in life. Even kids who live in such dire situations still find joy.
And that’s exactly it. African’s have probably seen more hardships than people in Canada will ever see, yet they’re often found smiling. When communicating with the people of Africa, do you speak some of the dialects, or do you just smile a lot?
Sue
One day when Dwight was visiting a farmer out in a field with no shade, I started back to this little homestead nearby to find the wife and children of the farmer. I needed to get out of the hot sun. I didn’t speak the language and the farmer’s wife didn’t speak English, but somehow we communicated through a simple smile. Often when you come to an African community, the people will sing to welcome you. We didn’t play on previous trips, but on our most recent trip, we took a travel guitar. I don’t want to sound corny but music really is a universal language. The message can still be conveyed without understanding the words.
Dwight
Africans like to know you took the time to learn their language. So we learned the basics. There are so many dialects in Africa. In Tanzania alone there are over 130 different ethnic groups and they all have their own dialects. But to learn a few words, really does show you care and it invites open communication. I think the reason behind all the smiling is perspective. The African people live with just enough food to get them day to day. And when living day to day, they appreciate the next day. I think we lost that perspective here. In developed countries like Canada, we’re not trying to live day to day, we’re trying to get to 55 or 80. And how can you enjoy each day thinking that far ahead? You end up missing the little joys that happen. I don’t think the African people have lost that perspective, and therefore seem to enjoy life despite how dangerous it is.
Sue
And when things are nice for them, they really appreciate it. Here in Canada, we never seem to have enough. We always want more. Going to Africa has really changed my perspective. I’m much happier with less than I use to be. I’ve seen people with significantly less, and they’re still able to be thankful.
Dwight
Music’s a good analogy. You bring a bunch of people in a developed country to a musical event, and rather than just throwing themselves into the music, a number of them will say, “oh, I don’t like this music”, others will say, “oh, it’s too loud” or “it’s too crowded”. Music events in rural Africa are bunches of people standing around a tree when music suddenly breaks out, and they’re immediately engaged and joyful.
African people are very musical, aren’t they? I imagine them singing as they go about their day.
Dwight
Music is something that comes naturally to them. When they don’t have anything else, what do they do? They sing. They chant. Here in Canada, we put iPods on our heads and listen to somebody else’s music. If you walk around singing on the streets of Toronto, people will think you’re nuts.
Many of your songs are inspired by children. Can you tell us about the song, See The Little Baby?
Dwight
The song is about the contrast between here and there. One of the most common sights in Africa is little children walking beside cars driving on highways. Parents have no carriages, so their children are walking at a very young age. Children who are only six inches from the road somehow survive just fine. You’d never see that in Canada. And that impression stayed with me. The song is also about the differences in terms of food, how they wake up in the morning, and how we expect to live. There is no Freedom 55 in Africa. The average life expectancy is very seldom over 50, whereas here in Canada, we expect to reach 80, just like that.
Sue
I think with that particular song, Dwight started writing it when we were in Malawi on our last trip. Malawi had been significantly impacted by AIDS, so we saw a lot of orphans. Lots and lots of children were seen with other children, but not with any adults, because their parents had died. So that’s where See the Little Baby started.
One particular day on your last trip, the sun exposure was very intense, so refuge was sought in the back of the truck. There was no one around for a tailgate party, so Sue started her own party by strumming a guitar and singing. Can you tell us what happened next?
Sue
When anyone pulls up to an African village in a car or any vehicle, it’s pretty exciting. And when you have blonde hair and blue eyes, it only adds to the excitement. Before I knew it, kids were peering into the vehicle wanting to interact with me. One particular time, some kids followed me to the truck. I took out my guitar to sing to five or six little boys. And no matter what song I would play, there was one little guy who would always be dancing. His dancing was a gentle little march. He was the sweetest little thing. Dwight was filming the restoration of a well that had been out of commission, but he picked up on what was happening and managed to swing the camera around to capture some of it. I’m so glad he did. Although it’s a clear memory in my mind, it’s wonderful to see on video.
Sue performs in the back of the truck for African children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5I4zijzpwA
There was another time you were playing in the back of the truck, when a riot broke out. Can you tell us about that?
Sue
(laughter) I was sitting in the back of the truck playing some songs for the kids, when a large crowd formed and became quite excited. The kids are so beautiful, so I decided to take a picture. Taking my camera out wasn’t so much a mistake as showing them the viewfinder. When I showed the kids the viewfinder, they went wild. It was like a riot broke out. Dwight had to stop his interview to rush out and see what the ruckus was all about. (laughs)
Tell me about these interviews.
Sue
(laughs) Dwight’s role with CPAR is Director of Development and his job is fundraising. Dwight conducts and films interviews with the African people involved with CPAR programs, so donors back here in Canada can see how their money is working.
Dwight
I ask questions and our interpreter will translate. The CPAR staff who are based in Africa are not really trained interpreters, but they help.
Record stores are a dying breed here in North America, but Dwight went searching for record stores in Africa to find the Freedom cd by Lucius Banda. What are record stores like in Africa?
Dwight
When we were in Northern Uganda, there is a type of music called Acholi. It has a real reggae feel to it, and I wanted to find some of that. We had been driving with a fellow named Henry and both he and I had spotted what appeared to be a record store, so we stopped. We went in. Dvds seemed to be quite popular there, but there was only a small selection of cds. In the areas we were in, you can’t really find commercially released stuff. And most African artists have never been formally recorded. If the guy in the record store had what you wanted on his hard drive, he would make you a cd while you wait. You may get the entire cd of the artist, or you may get a mix of songs.
Are you talking specifically about local artists?
Yes. First we made a point of buying cds in Lira (Northern Uganda) before we got to Kampala (the capital city) because you can’t get northern music very easily, and the music we wanted was local to Lira and the Gulu area. Stuff you could never get on the internet. During a previous trip we had driven around Malawi hearing Lucius Banda’s new song, but it wasn’t released at that time. I tried to find it on the internet when we got home, and ended up buying an older recording through CD Baby. This trip I got the new one and a few others. But you know, buying a cd in Africa, you’re never sure if you’re getting a legitimate copy or a bootleg copy. But they will let you play it in the store before buying it, to make sure it actually plays. When we were in Malawi, we went to a high tech record store which was part electronic, part camera shop. This is where we got Lucius Banda’s new recording.
Sue
Interestingly, Lucius Banda was playing in Lilongwe (Malawi) the day after we left. It was a Sunday afternoon concert in the park, which would’ve been amazing. But we did see his tour bus on the side of the road, and that was exciting.
Have you seen any big concerts during any of your trips to Africa?
Sue
No. But Lucius Banda is an icon in Malawi, and that would have been big.
Dwight
Lucius Banda was a real political advocate for human rights and freedoms at a point when Malawi went through governmental transition. But what’s interesting, even though we haven’t seen a big show in Africa, we’ve seen so much music there. Whether it was at the opening of a new health centre or just a community welcoming, there was always music. It’s much more intimate and amazing when music breaks out in a field around a big tree, and choirs come out of nowhere.
If I’m not mistaken, the song Marching was written at a time of great inspiration for Sue. I remember hearing the song in its infancy a couple of years ago, and noting how Sue was really coming into her own as a song writer. Can you tell me how it felt singing Marching for the Women Resource Centre in Karatu (Tanzania)?
Sue
Marching is inspired by strong women I know, who’ve kept an optimistic focus on life. And this parallels most of the women we met in Africa. Women in Africa are very powerful in some ways, keeping the family together and keeping things going. CPAR does a lot of their work through women. I don’t want to suggest men in Africa aren’t responsible but traditionally, it’s the women who receive the resources and make sure they go to the right purpose. Men might not necessarily have the same focus if they were to receive the same resources.
Dwight
It’s a traditional paternal society that Africa is still emerging out of. The wife’s job is to look after the household and raise the kids. The husband is the man in power, but in rural African towns and communities, the mother is the one raising the family and looking after the farm. The fathers might get jobs doing cash crops, but then he may keep the money for himself. Organizations like CPAR understand this, and specifically target the female as the head of house.
Sue
But I don’t want the men to be seen as negative stereo types. We met plenty of men who were fully engaged in their communities and families.
Dwight
It’s not a stereotype, it’s the truth. But it is evolving.
Sue
The good thing is: the women are really strong as they move through adversity.
Marching performed by Sue and Dwight at the Women Resource Centre in Karatu (Tanzania)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=novfwL6H3DA
As a writer of songs about global warming (Mercury Rising), can you tell us what it was like travelling in a small propeller aircraft as you flew by Mt Kilimanjaro?
Sue
The song Mercury Rising was inspired by an article in the Toronto Star. The article was about the ice caps of Mount Kilimanjaro melting at an alarming rate, and the impact it was having on the people who live at the base. My friend Kim Cole called me up and said, “I just read this story and I think we need to write a song about it.” I was afraid to get on that plane. But flying by Mount Kilimanjaro at such a slow speed was amazing. It was quite moving. Had we been on a big jet plane, we would have zoomed by it. This way we were able to see it close up. Sadly, the snow caps have continued to melt. It’s a serious problem.
Dwight
What happens on Mount Kilimanjaro is a precursor of the struggle for water that could happen everywhere if we don’t look after it.
Perhaps more songs about global warming will show up on your next cd?
Sue
As a matter of fact, the first song I wrote after this most recent trip is about the drought in Northern Uganda. It’s happening right now, and it’s tragic.
Can you tell us about the characters who inspired the title track, Little Child Big World?
Sue
Back in 2007, we met an African woman who started a community group to help feed AIDS orphans. Her little boy had passed me a note that said “My name is Biggers. Will you be my friend?” And he smiled at me. When we re-visited Africa this year, we went back to that same meeting place and as I was talking with one of the CPAR members, a young boy standing nearby was staring straight at me. “Is that you Biggers?” I said. A big smile spread across his face as he came running over to give me a hug. He had grown. I’ve stayed in touch with Biggers and his mother by sending pictures and clothes.
Does Biggers know he’s one of the characters in the song?
Sue
We sang the song for them. And it was emotional when we got to the part, “Biggers has a big wide smile...” After the song ended, both Dwight and I said how tough it was to get through that part.
Biggers was a big inspiration for that song.
But this is not Biggers on the front cover of the cd?
Sue
No, that’s Fanny. She’s the first of the three children I mention in the song. Back in 2007, we had gone to a school and while Dwight was busy filming and interviewing, I was wandering around and this little girl was sticking really close to me. Wherever I went, she was only a few feet away. She had such a serious look on her face the whole time. Finally, just before we went to leave, I asked if I could take her picture and she broke out into this beautiful smile, which is the cover of the cd. It was funny because she had such a serious look on her face up till that point. She was in tattered clothes, and I don’t really know what her story was, but she made quite an impression.
Reading your blog, I found it amusing that Lionel Richie dance music was heard coming from an African wedding reception at your hotel. It’s such a completely different life from the one here, and yet similar. The work you do through CPAR and the people of Africa must enrich your life a great deal. But, you’re also enriching their lives, not just by the work CPAR is doing, but through your music. It’s a real exchange, isn’t it?
Dwight
When we broke out of our African shyness and played a song there for the first time, our friend Jean said, “They don’t see this here every day.” Surprisingly, you’ll hear Lionel Richie but to have regular people like us come and play acoustic guitars and sing right in front of them, it’s an entirely different experience.
Sue
It’s definitely been life changing. It’s usually the Africans doing the singing, but there is an exchange.
We felt truly welcome in Africa, which is a nice feeling. We attracted a lot of attention just by looking different, so I found I would say hello to everyone I came across, which is not something I would necessarily do here. You want to acknowledge people in a positive way. I may be a bit friendlier on the Toronto streets than some people, but in Africa I was even friendlier. I smiled even more.
The release of Little Child Big World is scheduled for this coming Tuesday, Sept 22nd. Can you tell us what we can expect at The Cameron House that night?
Sue
The Cameron House will be decorated with an African theme, with African souvenirs and prizes for people who purchase tickets.
Dwight
On our last cd, Darlings of the Open Stage, it was just us and Kevin Quain. But for Little Child Big World, we broadened our musical wings by bringing in Adam Warner to play drums and Shelley Cooper Smith to play violin. Kim Cole and Michelle Rumball provide backup vocals. And in addition to helping produce the cd, Kevin Quain plays accordion, bass and piano. All of the musicians on the cd will be performing with us at the release party. It’ll be a bigger sound than we normally have, and it will be a great night at The Cameron House.
Sue
All of the musicians involved with Little Child Big World are fabulous, simply the best.
Dwight
Accept no substitutes.
http://www.sueanddwight.com/
http://www.myspace.com/sueanddwight
http://www.thecameron.com/
http://www.cpar.ca/home.asp
